• Nougat@fedia.io
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    9 months ago

    If you’re having trouble understanding what this map means, it means that the suicide rate for men is higher than for women everywhere, notably 5 to 6 times higher in Eastern Europe and Russia, and 8 times higher in a couple of Central American countries and West Africa.

    I wonder what makes men the world over decide that suicide is the best option.

    • Lmaydev@programming.dev
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      9 months ago

      I would imagine toxic masculinity.

      Men are encouraged to be stoic and not express their emotions.

      Most men don’t have a single friend they can talk openly about their emotions with.

      • snooggums@midwest.social
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        9 months ago

        They are also told their entire lives that everyone relies on them and then are publicly shamed if they fail. Plus being first in line for any violent conflict, where they might lose the few friends they have and no outlets since showing any weakness is punished.

      • Moneo@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        It’s interesting how terms like toxic masculinity lead to instant downvotes from a certain type of person but if you make the exact same comment without it you get zero downvotes.

        It’s almost like people have been conditioned to be reflexively averse to specific words without actually understanding what they mean.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          It’s just a poor term overall. To a lot of people it sounds like masculinity itself was toxic and bad, instead of pointing to a toxic form of it.

          Should just have a better, less confusing word for it.

        • inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Toxic masculinity was a term coined by men wanting to be free from the expectations of the patriarchy. It’s beyond heart breaking that so many men parodoxically react with anger to this phrase. Double so while bemoaning the lack of mental health options for men.

          My good dudes, you’re literally building the cages for yourself.

      • Shou@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Not just that. In 90% of suicide attempt, the decision was made within an hour before the attempt. Impulsivity is a component and men are more impulsive. We also see that people with ADHD are more likely to attempt suicide too. Not only that, women who take the pill are 2x more likely to attempt suicide and 3x more likely to succeed. This is because estrogens stimulate the frontal lobe and are needed for emotional stability and cognitive control. Which is also why girls outperform boys on average in academic settings as well.

        This means the difference isn’t just a social issue. Suicide rates have been increasing for both men and women in the western world the past 20 years. Thankfilly, that doesn’t mean we can’t improve it.

        But we can’t expect it to ever be 50/50. Unless ofcourse we make women’s lives worse. But that’s not solving men’s problems.

    • GluWu@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      I wonder what makes men the world over decide that suicide is the best option.

      Because if you don’t have a partner and high paying job, you aren’t just worthless, you are a burden.

      • shnizmuffinA
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        9 months ago

        Hey now, you can have both of those things and still be a burden.

      • Montagge@lemmy.zip
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        9 months ago

        I’m going to need proof

        It just seems like some of y’all want a self fulfilling prophecy.

        • abigscaryhobo@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I mean to an extent, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. Whether or not it’s the case, it’s often felt my men that they have to be the breadwinner, or at least the point of strength. They can have people around them that tell them otherwise, but if they don’t feel like they measure up then that’s what it will be.

          People don’t often just commit suicide because they’re like “I guess this is how the math works out”, they felt, or were told, or told themselves, that things can only be better if they’re gone. In every case, they won’t be, but that’s where their mental journey led them

    • pyrflie@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      Hierarchy, military conflict, and expected economic outlook. All three are pretty bleak in the worst regions shown. External powers have the first, the countries in question are engaged in the later, and the next 20-50 years are pretty bleak for typical male occupations for the countries in question. I would expect Argentina to rise over the next few years, but who knows women may kill themselves at a higher rate under a fascist govt.

    • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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      9 months ago

      Men are overly hormonal. Domestic abuse, war, homicide… They should take a more logical stance instead of being a slave to their feelings.

      • Kolli@sopuli.xyz
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        9 months ago

        What a great specimen of Finnish self-aware sarcasm.

        • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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          9 months ago

          Lol it isn’t sarcasm. If you would like to test my hypothesis, next time you see a man raging, tell him he is being overly hormonal. 99% chance he will not calm down and start behaving logically XD

          • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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            9 months ago

            Have you just never met a woman before?

            When did you lose your first tooth?

            • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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              9 months ago

              Please, quit being so emotional.

              You just proved my point. Instead of evaluating the truth of my statement, you turned to aggressive ad-hominem.

                • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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                  9 months ago

                  Don’t know what aggression means?

                  Lol I’m getting all the boys today… arriba!

              • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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                9 months ago

                I asked you two questions.

                The fact that you tried to debatelord away from a simple question like “When did you lose your first tooth?” means that you are almost certainly AI.

                I’m reporting your account and blocking you.

      • Pilferjinx@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        You’re saying that men should sever their feelings? How is that even possible? What do you feel like is the right way to do that?

        • Sidyctism@feddit.de
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          9 months ago

          Its a joke. The point is that women are often being told that they are too emotional (as opposed to the very logical men), even though men are often the ones with violent outbursts.

        • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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          9 months ago

          No my friend, but assuming that feelings, emotions, and hormones are something negative that need to be ignored or done away with is an artefact of patriarchy and we can throw that whole shit away.

    • tacosanonymous@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      We are not as good at voicing our issues with a committed support network and we are way better at following through on suicidal ideation.

      • fishpen0@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        In the US

        Notice all the countries where guns are illegal still have higher male suicide rates

        • force@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Notably almost all of Eastern Europe too, where guns are pretty easy to get even illegally (thanks Czechia and Estonia)

    • shalafi@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      I wonder if evolution isn’t at play. Females killing themselves off is an awful reproductive strategy. Males doing the same is not such a big deal.

      If I’m not clear: A woman takes about a year from attempting to get pregnant to gestation to birth to recovery. I could impregnate hundreds of women in a year. And so could any other man. We’re simply not as valuable.

      And yes, men have plenty of value outside sperm donation, I was trying to shine a harsh light.

      • Shou@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        You’re right. Estrogens play an important role in brain development. They stimulate a few regions in the brain, which include parts of the limbic system and the frontal lobe. Both playing a huge role in emotional stability and impulse control.

        Now what we see in both primates and humans, is that when males get frustrated, they will seek out a weaker opponent to unleash it on. This usually is a juvenile or their mother. Females are weaker, and don’t have many targets to terrorize. They absolutely would if they could. So estrogens play a role in self control.

        Women inherited this benefit. The emotional and cognitive control that estrogens enhance, is why women are less impulsive, have lower expression of aggression and perform much better in schools. This is because estrogens stimulate brain development in girls and it gives them an advantage over boys.

        We also found that men with normal testosterone levels have this effect too. In pretty much all animals where we studied this, higher levels of testosterone correlate with higher levels of aggression. Not only that, in both humans and rats, t-levels fluctuated based on social hierarchy. Changing as status changes. This may have to do with self preservation and making sure you don’t piss off a stronger opponent.

        But in humans, slightly higher levels of testosterone correlate with less aggressive behaviours. This is because when men and women produce more androgens, they produce more estrogens. And so the self-control for men increases.

        Furthermore. Women who take the contraceptive pill are twice more likely to attempt suicide and 3 times more likely to succeed than women who don’t take the pill. This is why estrogens are added to prevent depression. A well known side effect of the pill.

    • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      I wonder what makes men the world over decide that suicide is the best option.

      No one cares, and life is cruel and cold. The end.

  • thesporkeffect@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    I have no way to know the lived experience of women, but I have observed since about 4 years of age that the buck stops with me. I, and I suspect the vast majority of men, have no backstop - If I have any problem that I can’t fix myself, or can’t pay money to get assistance with, I am fucked.

    I hear anecdotally that women are more likely to tell people about suicidal ideation… Does this imply that women have better results using social networks to move past the stressors or illness behind that ideation?

    Best case if I was feeling like I couldn’t bear to keep living and told someone, maybe a family member would have me committed for my own good. Then after the imprisonment, I am also unemployed and still have no one with the bandwidth to help me deal with whatever issues I was having.

    • huginn@feddit.it
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      9 months ago

      Afaik suicide attempt rates are 2-3x more common in women than men. Men are just more likely to choose methods that are more deadly.

      • abigscaryhobo@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Not to belittle it on either side but I do wonder what causes that disparity. Is it that men plan it more thoroughly or have access to more dangerous methods? Do women choose methods that, unintentional or not, can be backed out of more easily? Are women more likely to report a failed attempt than men? If that 2-3x factor is true, then why don’t we see similar numbers of idk completion? I hesitate to say success because it is very much not a success to commit suicide, there are always other options, even if they’re not perfect.

        • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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          9 months ago

          I’ve heard the claims that women generally opt for less effective methods because they’re more likely to want to leave an opportunity to back out, or try to avoid leaving a messy corpse. I have not data here, these are simply claims I’ve heard.

          • AnalogyAddict@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            I’ve heard the latter, as in even in death women are thinking about others.

            Anecdotally, I’ve heard that almost universally. Every woman or girl I know who has chosen not to commit suicide, someone having to find their corpse factored highly in their reasons.

            • clearleaf@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              Someone being there to find them in the first place might be a factor in all this.

              • force@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                When you commit suicide your corpse doesn’t just disappear after a few days. Somebody has to find it sooner or later, whether that’s the paramedics/police or someone else. And yes, seeing someone’s corpse after they committed suicide is very traumatic, even to emergency responders

        • Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          In part the reasons are perpetrated by media and culture. If you go back to the medieval period records men and women died at about the same rate and they both used predominantly drowning and hanging as method.

          Think about the dramatization of suicide for a hot minute and poison shows up as having this stigma of being a woman’s weapon or the “easy way out” more often than not the dramatic gut punch for men has been stuff like a gun to the head, hanging, jumping off a tall something… Something violent and effective and “brave” for lack of a better term. Certain types of death are coded as “emasculating” and those types of death are generally easier to rescue someone from because of the length of time between making the decision and actual death.

          The deaths of women (at least provided they are not villians) in media are more often played up for gore and empathy when they are violently murdered but played down when it comes to suicide. Either the type used is quiet and gives the illusion of the peaceful end of quiet despair, it happens off screen or the camera angle changes to soften the impact. There is no comparative “unwomanly” way to die. This is in part because at some level it hits different. Executioners in women’s prisons have reported that it effected them way more and caused mental traumas. People who make fiction use this to manipulate the way you’re supposed to feel.

          At some level with enough iteration you create expectations of what suicides are supposed to look like based on their individual thematic meanings… Which are coded by gender.

        • Ajen@sh.itjust.works
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          9 months ago

          have access to more dangerous methods?

          Are there any methods that are available to men that aren’t available to women?

          • DillyDaily@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Women are more likely to opt for “clean” methods to avoid leaving a mess for grieving family. Paracetamol overdose, poisons, natural gas. For whatever reason (and anecdotally I can blame the way women are socialised to put others first by valuing “feminine” traits of caring and nurturing) women will go for a slower, even more painful method if it means less trauma for those finding the body. Women often have an existing support network that “failed” them, and they don’t want that support network to feel guilty, so making their death seem “peaceful” plays into the suicide plan.

            Men are more likely to go for methods that are quick and effective because the ultimate goal is to die. Men don’t have that same support network, there was nobody there to “fail” these men, they often had no one in the first place, so there’s not as much consideration for what the method of death may mean for those left behind. Men are more likely to jump in front of trains or shoot themselves.

            The support network plays into this as well, because women often have other people, they may accidentally let on that something has changed in their lives suicide motivation. Even a simple “you’re a great friend, thank you for being there” text could send a red flag and women are more likely to have paramedics called by a suspicious friend or family member.

            Because men often don’t have anyone, they don’t raise any red flags, so their attempts have no external intervention.

            • Ajen@sh.itjust.works
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              9 months ago

              That’s a lot of good info, but it sounds like the short answer to my question is “no?”

              • DillyDaily@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Sorry, I replied to the wrong level in that comment thread and in doing so didn’t answer your question at all because I wasn’t thinking about your question specifically.

                Women have all the same options as men, but because of the way women are socialised those options seem unfavourable.

                • Ajen@sh.itjust.works
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                  9 months ago

                  because of the way women are socialised those options seem unfavourable.

                  Do you think the inverse is also true? That men are socialized in a way that makes certain options seem unfavorable? For example, men are far less likely to pick methods that give other people a chance to intervene.

        • athos77@kbin.social
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          9 months ago

          Personally, I think it comes down to two things. The first has to do with the root causes of the suicidality. If what you have is severe, can-barely-get-out-of-bed depression, you’re more likely to choose a more passive and less likely to succeed method like swallowing the pills you currently have in your medicine cabinet. If one of your root causes is anger, then you’re more likely to choose a more active method like leaving the house and finding a tall building.

          And the second is that men are twice as likely to own a firearm.

    • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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      9 months ago

      I have observed since about 4 years of age that the buck stops with me. I, and I suspect the vast majority of men, have no backstop - If I have any problem that I can’t fix myself, or can’t pay money to get assistance with, I am fucked.

      I think this is an important observation. Women, almost always, have some avenue of potential support, even if it’s unsavory. Men very often have nothing.

    • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Why? The red and orange are close in color, otherwise it shows if it is green in color, more women commit suicide than men, then the ratio goes up by color

      • tweeks@feddit.nl
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        9 months ago

        If it is green then they have the same average right? 1:1. But in this graph it would be difficult to show when more women committed suicide, which might nowhere be the case.

        Or you’d get 0.5 with a color match, for example.

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Women literally never commit suicide at the same rate or less, that’s kind of the point.

          • Pra@sh.itjust.works
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            9 months ago

            Ok, but if you (me) didn’t know that coming into this, you’d be confused why it only scaled one way. I would’ve figured there’s at least some parts of the world where women had higher rates than men.

            • gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              9 months ago

              The numbers, right there on the bar, and the text at the top of the image.

              “male to female suicide ratio” and then the numbers 1-10, it even explains that it’s (men’s suicides / women’s suicides) so anyone who doesn’t know what a ratio is can enjoy as well

        • okamiueru@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago
          • 1: same number of men and women
          • 2: twice as many men, as women
          • 3: three times as many… Etc
          • x: x times as many men

          Does this help?

          • Conyak@lemmy.tf
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            9 months ago

            It does but if it was good it wouldn’t need an explanation.

            • okamiueru@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              The title explains it… If it isn’t clear by that, it explains what that means in the text below. That my explanation was necessary is not really the fault of the infographic

    • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      See now, when I say lemmy users are the dumbest bunch of people I’ve ever seen outside of YouTube comments, people say I’m being too harsh. But this comment is currently at +45.

      • shneancy@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        it is not a matter of intelligence to want to understand an info graphic without need to put work in it

          • shneancy@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            it’s probably foolish to get into an argument with someone who thinks themselves better than me, but i’m bored so

            in what world, do you read the word “ratio” then see “7” and instantly go “ah yes, 7/1 can also be seen as 7:1”, instead of being confused for a bit because you expected a ratio

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              It…specifically explains the part that you were confused about. Right there, below the title.

              • shneancy@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                you literally have to additionally imagine the rest of the ratio anyway. I know dividing 7 by 1 gives you 7, but just a 7 is not a ratio

                i give up, you either think yourself better than everyone to the point of refusing to acknowledge how the info graphic presents its information in an unintuitive way, or are OPs alt dying on this hill trying to defend your info graphic

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  I know dividing 7 by 1 gives you 7, but just a 7 is not a ratio

                  Does this prevent you in any way from comprehending the image? It takes more effort to parse out what you just said than it takes to understand the drawing. I still don’t understand why it’s relevant but that’s beyond the point.

                  The image title could have said “MALE SUICIDES VS FEMALE SUICIDES (SKABADOO BANANAS WITH PAUL LEMON)” and you should still be able to immediately understand that farther right = more male suicides

                  Hell you should be able to understand the gist of the image without even having any numbers on the bottom, just “less” on the left and “more” on the right.

  • peanuts4life@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    9 months ago

    I’m a man, USA. In my personal experience, which doesn’t mean very much, I’ve noticed that men seem unable to accept catastrophy. They try to reason or wiggle a way out of it. Woman seem more at ease when dealing with horrible events.

    If I had to guess, it is a difference in perception and experience. Perhaps men are groomed to be “providers, problem solvers,” and so they despair at unsolvable problems, while women are told not to “overreact,” and to “support” others in times of crisis. Like a weird inverted effect of patriarchal society.

    • MeanEYE@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Men are groomed to hide feelings. We are often told from very young age don’t be a sissy. Suck it up. Be a man. From young age you are thought that showing emotion makes you less of a man, makes you a sub-human. But we all have issues, pent up emotions and problems. Then one day you simply stop wanting things. Or pain becomes too much.

    • TwistyLex@discuss.tchncs.de
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      9 months ago

      Expanding on this it could be that women deal with catastrophe (e.g. SA/rape) much earlier in life so later catastrophes are perceived as imminently survivable.

  • kersploosh@sh.itjust.works
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    9 months ago

    It would be interesting to find a way to also represent the overall rate. Some of these countries really stand out for their high male:female ratio even though their overall rates are not particularly high.

  • doggle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    9 months ago

    Wasn’t paying attention and misread the map at first. It’s showing male suicides / female suicides. So a green nation would be 1:1 equal suicide by gender. So every nation has a strong bias towards male suicide, some much more so than others.

  • Manucode@feddit.de
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    9 months ago

    Considering various social taboos around suicide, I’m not sure how reliable such data is.

    • GluWu@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      Counting corpses is pretty reliable, objective data.

        • Paraneoptera@sopuli.xyz
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          9 months ago

          This is true. And in communities around the world where suicide is stigmatized, there is heavy pressure on authorities to record deaths as “accidental” rather than suicide. In fact, this is borne out by statistics in which you see higher rates of death attributed to accident in such communities, once you control for other variables. This is especially the case in societies in which there is social shunning of entire families who have lost someone to suicide. The coroner in these communities may worry with good reason about serious mistreatment of families if there is a public record of suicide. It’s also not unreasonable to think that this misreporting may play into the gender divide in suicides. If different sexes tend to use different methods, some of these methods are much more ambiguous and easier to record as an accident than others.

    • UndercoverUlrikHD@programming.dev
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      9 months ago

      Could you elaborate on what angle you’re coming from? It’s a trend on worldwide scale, social taboos can hardly be a reason for much inaccuracy.

      • Manucode@feddit.de
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        9 months ago

        I’m not talking about the general trend of more men committing suicide than women. I just think that the specific ratios for different countries might not be that accurate.

  • OpenStars@startrek.website
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    9 months ago

    Green is such a beautiful, bright, shiny color… unmissable you might even say. I see it nowhere except the legend though. :-(

  • Atyno@dmv.social
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    9 months ago

    So, while there’s no green, I think it’d be interesting to consider what’s going on in the yellow places. Its likely those areas are close to parity even if male suicide is (marginally?) higher.

    Particularly India and China.

    Edit: just India, China is on the higher end after looking into the actual numbers. Also, Grenada should show up as green on this map, but the creator chose to not include it. Admittedly, it wasn’t the only lesser Antilles island that was nixed so I’m not going to immediately call bias.

    • Sjmarf@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      9 months ago

      I didn’t know about that community, but I also don’t see why I shouldn’t post here? The beauty of the Fediverse is that there can be many places that serve the same purpose.

    • Addv4@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Pretty sure green would be male/female suicide parity (for every man to commit suicide, there would be a woman as well). I’m pretty sure the scale indicates more men than women commit suicide the further up you go. That being said, it is not a very good graph, and also doesn’t show total numbers, which would be interesting to see.

      • elmicha@feddit.de
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        9 months ago

        I’m pretty sure that green goes from 0 to 1, i.e. from 0 male suicides to suicide parity.

        • Sjmarf@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          9 months ago

          That would be correct. There are clearer ways that the data could have been displayed

      • Mango@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Yeah the graph is pretty bad. I had to actually think about it and still got it wrong.

    • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
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      9 months ago

      For every female suicide, zero males commit suicide! Hooray! /s

      In Greenland there was 1 polar bear attack per female suicide.

      • SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        In Greenland there was 1 polar bear attack per female suicide.

        I choose that this infers someone’s lover killed themselves after they died from a polar bear.

    • Moneo@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Two things can be true. Privilege does not guarantee happiness or satisfaction in life.

      As a cis-het-white male I have basically every mainstream privilege, as a result I’ve lived most of my life completely unaware of the discrimination many others face on a daily basis. When “SJW” first became a term I considered myself anti-SJW. I was depressed and struggling in life and being told I had advantages over other people was not something I wanted to hear. Since then my understanding of what privilege is and means has changed a lot.

      Having privilege does not have to be a scary thing and you are not a worse person because you have privilege. It’s simply a fact of life. We intrinsically understand that attractive and/or talented people have advantages in life and get treated better based on traits that are purely biological, those traits do not guarantee those people happy or even productive lives. Take that knowledge and apply it to race/gender/sexuality and you understand privilege.