cross-posted from: https://programming.dev/post/3658116
or maybe some other terminology would be better? lots of people get confused when you ask them to choose an instance, sometimes I think even the word "proxy", "host", or "hub" is simpler
the specific terms aren't my point, just a discussion to see if we can come up with a better name
Server is the best term. It’s the most accurate and it’s already understood by the masses because of discord servers. Especially since people know anyone’s can create their own discord server and still talk with anyone rose on discord (through dms or visiting their server) so it makes it really easy to understand the fediverse and lemmy if we just call them servers
I think Discord actually is destroying meaning of “server” for many people. It should be called “communities” or “guilds”. Server is not an abstract division between communities, but an actual machine serving and processing data, so you really can’t create a Discord server unless you reverse engineer their code.
Pretty sure the only reason Discord went with the server terminology is because they were competing with TeamSpeak, Ventrillo and Mumble which were all actual servers people would host.
They completely murdered the meaning of the term just so they could advertise as “look how easy it is to make a Discord server! You don’t even need a server or mess with firewalls and IP forwarding and Hamachi, it just works!”
I fucking hate it.
i know discord servers are run on your own servers but us using the term would both be accurate and be understandable by the average person.
No, calling Discord groups/communities/guilds “servers” is not accurate and is totally wrong. You cannot create your own Discord server and Discord would never let you.
It’s like calling Facebook a website hosting, because you can create a “site” on it.
…. Im talking about lemmy servers. Calling lemmy instances servers. I don’t care what people call discord servers im saying they already call them servers. So people will understand what a lemmy server is because they already know what a discord server is and the concept is similar enough they will immediately understand how lemmy servers work and can still communicate with one another.
Ah, I think I get it now.
I haven’t been on FB for several years, but ugh there was a while in the late 2010s when so many people over there were referring to FB groups as sites and just arghh arrghh aaarrgghhh.
Of all the words I would come up with to replace instance, proxy would probably be very near the bottom of the list.
For me the first thing that comes to mind is the websites we used back in school to circumvent the school network filters. I suspect that’s probably the case for a lot of people who would be confused by the term instance enough to be put off by it. Others would probably think “it’s proxy for what? Why shouldnt I go right to the actual source instead of going through a proxy?”
Server would probably be my first choice if we wanted to ditch the instance terminology, and off the top of my head, host, home, hub, portal, access point, provider, node, center, affiliate, axis, and core, would all come to mind before proxy (and most of those I wouldn’t consider to be better terms than instance, though still far better than proxy)
If we were to use a different term, I’d probably go with something like “provider”, like “email provider” or “internet service provider” or “phone service provider”, you’d have a Lemmy provider. Providers tend to be associated with mostly interoperable things so it fits alright.
Anything else is a wild misuse and abuse of technical terms that have actual meanings. Discord already murdered the definition of “server” with calling their spaces “servers” banking on user ignorance and familiarity with the term to sell them on a completely different kind of service.
Bigger instances run on several servers, maybe even distributed geographically. They’re definitely not proxies. Host could work but it’s a bit nondescript. Hub doesn’t really sell the decentralization aspect. Even server doesn’t quite do it anyway, since thanks to Discord people now associate that with isolated spaces anyway.
Instance are far from being simple proxies. While instances can act as proxies for other instances, the aim is to have each instances to have their own communities and be somewhat self sufficient. If you remove the federation, Lemmy (and other fediverse software) still work, it’s just that it is more difficult in that case to reach a critical mass of users.
yea I understand, but I think the term “instance” confuses new users
I would only use terms like “proxy” or “hub” if the instance actually had federation enabled, otherwise I would probably just call it a “server” or “host”
The thing I like about proxy or hub is that they imply you can access the other content out there and the choice isn’t super important
the point of this post is to reevaluate our terminology because it’s a huge source of confusion for new users, I don’t know what term is best but I’m pretty sure “instance” is not good
no offense, but ‘proxy’ and ‘hub’ are also technophobe-ambiguous. servers, however… is somewhat mainstream. all my ignorant staff understand the server concept.
I agree with you on proxy.
For hub I am not sure, that sounds a bit more mainstream to me, with the caveat that English is not my mother tongue. That gives a nice image that an instance is basically an access hub to a whole universe of data.
Proxy is inaccurate. Server is a better term.
I think proxy is accurate enough for getting new users to signup (when talking about servers that do federate of course)
but I do think server is good too
The thing I like about proxy or hub is that they imply you can access the other content out there and the choice isn’t super important
some people might understand what a proxy is but many won’t. if i turn off my nerd brain, proxy makes me think of “proxy war”. knowing about the concept of a proxy war, calling something a proxy, it is just confusing.
Instance is the best name for it as instance implies replication and federation. Server isn’t incorrect but also a server doesn’t necessarily mirror content which is why I think instance is the most correct term for fediverse services. I don’t think change the vernacular for instances is going to make it easier to understand for people who aren’t technical though. I think just referring it to mastodon/lemmy/whatever is fine and then I would tell them to sign up for lemmy at lemmy.world or sh.it.just.works etc like you would tell someone to sign up for email at google or yahoo
Choose a tour bus.
It would be simpler if users didn’t need to understand the details of federating to join in the first place.
This is actually a really good idea. Anyone familiar with Discord will get it very quickly, as the concept is sort of similar and they don't really need to understand how it works behind the scenes, they don't need a perfect understanding of how it really works, just how it behaves to them.
And for people who do like accuracy, we're also in luck, because they are in fact servers!
Let's do it.
I think “server” is good enough for the appropriate audiences. (Not everyone knows what a server is/does.) However since the accepted term is now “instance” I think the best idea is to mix them up so that audience will be able to pick up contextually that they have similar meanings.
Adults continue to learn new words in their home language at a rate of about 1 word/week through life. [1]^ Many of these words are related to changes in technology. It is not too much to ask for a person to learn some new vocab when trying a new tech. But, having the initial ideas presented in a framiliar way that does not require use of a glossary is helpful.
citation needed ↩︎
“Format” or “initialise”? “Directory” or “folder”…or maybe “drawer”? It’s already termed “instance” for a few years now by the Devs, so…
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