I don’t really get this obsession for “system” that some of the community has.
A system is there to support a lore, to take a cliché example, if you want character being normal human dealing with cosmic horror D&D is a bad choice, but if you want zero to hero campaign with character having Dragonball like power where they can destroy a whole planet with their fist, Call of Cthulhu won’t be a proper choice. Then the GM can really turns a good game into a bad campaign and the other way around.
With the amount of “PTBA” games (with all quality level) it’s hard to make any general statement, Iron sworn, Monster of the week, and kult are very different games concept.
A thing that disapoint me is that PTBA is seen as “rule light” when it’s actually pretty heavy rule wise. You need to give player helpsheet with moves, check table to see the consequence, definitely the opposite of rule light. It’s not necessarily a bad thing and playing by the rules is cool, but if you want simple rules where player would get the principle is 5 minutes it’s not the right choice.
Part of why I’m a little obsessed with system is years of people insisting on using DND for everything. Modern day investigation? DND. Sci Fi? DND. Occult horror? DND.
People just refuse to look at other options. They’d make up wild excuses to justify spending tremendous effort hacking d20 DND into something else instead of using a purpose built tool.
It’s infuriating. And they say “well DND is simple”.NO IT’S NOT. or “well I already know DND” when frankly they don’t and I have to remind them the rules every week anyway. Or “it works just fine” when they need to take three classes to build their concept, or the fact they have 40hp undermines any sense of danger the DM was aiming for.
System matters. A good DM can do a lot with any system, but the system you use affects the experience.
Yes, as long as people are having fun, that’s all that matters.
But it’s also fair to point out that hacking D&D to do something fundamentally outside of what it’s designed to do is going to be a lot of work for little pay off. Take it from people who are familiar with other games, it would honestly be easier to learn something new. (And most games aren’t as hard to pick up as 5e!) That’s not gatekeeping, that’s just advice based on experience. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze, so unless you like the squeeze for its own sake, maybe try something else.
Also, to speak on the system not mattering if you have a good DM: sure, that’s technically correct. That also doesn’t invalidate criticism of a set of rules. Yeah, a skilled and experienced DM can fix things, even on the fly, but maybe the entire system shouldn’t rely on that. 5e has notoriously bad DM-facing material, and after years of running it, I got burnt out. The DM is playing the game, too, and their time, effort, and fun matter just as much as anyone else’s. I’m sick of 5e’s approach that the DM will either figure it out or take the blame. The fact that it’s so hard to be a new DM is, in my opinion, the likely reason there’s a DM shortage. You don’t get the same problem with other games!
So yeah, like you said. System matters. Even if you don’t use a system per se and go FKR, that’s a choice you made on the structure of the game.
I think people mix the terms “rules-light” and “narrative-focused”, PBtA is very ‘everyone defines the story as they go’ (in my experience) compared to a DM having a set story in mind which the players follow. Also compared to D&D, PBtA is very rules-light, compare a few sheets for your playbook to pages of class abilities and spells in the PHB!
I really love pbta games but I would agree with you that they are not rule light so much as “rule lighter than d&d”
there’s lots of one page systems out there that are truly rules light.
that said once you know the rules I would say that it provides a system that is easy to plan for, it’s easy to play in, and it flows very naturally.
I ran dungeon world and monster of the week campaigns for years, playing probably 3 to 4 hours once a week on average most of that time.
I think I did maybe 2 hours a month of prep? something about like that.
I loved how pbta games would allow me to basically spend all of my prep time coming up with cool ideas and not having to worry too much about the mechanics because I either had a framework too accomplish them already or I could just make it up on the spot.
some of my group’s favorite moments in our campaign have come from me just making things up on the spot and them being able to react to it.
when I used to DM for d&d or Pathfinder those kind of moments would take hours of prep work.
I would say the obsession is more people finding something that has freed them from the heavy rule set rather than something that is truly rules light.
I don’t really get this obsession for “system” that some of the community has.
A system is there to support a lore, to take a cliché example, if you want character being normal human dealing with cosmic horror D&D is a bad choice, but if you want zero to hero campaign with character having Dragonball like power where they can destroy a whole planet with their fist, Call of Cthulhu won’t be a proper choice. Then the GM can really turns a good game into a bad campaign and the other way around.
With the amount of “PTBA” games (with all quality level) it’s hard to make any general statement, Iron sworn, Monster of the week, and kult are very different games concept.
A thing that disapoint me is that PTBA is seen as “rule light” when it’s actually pretty heavy rule wise. You need to give player helpsheet with moves, check table to see the consequence, definitely the opposite of rule light. It’s not necessarily a bad thing and playing by the rules is cool, but if you want simple rules where player would get the principle is 5 minutes it’s not the right choice.
Part of why I’m a little obsessed with system is years of people insisting on using DND for everything. Modern day investigation? DND. Sci Fi? DND. Occult horror? DND.
People just refuse to look at other options. They’d make up wild excuses to justify spending tremendous effort hacking d20 DND into something else instead of using a purpose built tool.
It’s infuriating. And they say “well DND is simple”.NO IT’S NOT. or “well I already know DND” when frankly they don’t and I have to remind them the rules every week anyway. Or “it works just fine” when they need to take three classes to build their concept, or the fact they have 40hp undermines any sense of danger the DM was aiming for.
System matters. A good DM can do a lot with any system, but the system you use affects the experience.
Yeah, it’s such a frustrating conversation.
Yes, as long as people are having fun, that’s all that matters.
But it’s also fair to point out that hacking D&D to do something fundamentally outside of what it’s designed to do is going to be a lot of work for little pay off. Take it from people who are familiar with other games, it would honestly be easier to learn something new. (And most games aren’t as hard to pick up as 5e!) That’s not gatekeeping, that’s just advice based on experience. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze, so unless you like the squeeze for its own sake, maybe try something else.
Also, to speak on the system not mattering if you have a good DM: sure, that’s technically correct. That also doesn’t invalidate criticism of a set of rules. Yeah, a skilled and experienced DM can fix things, even on the fly, but maybe the entire system shouldn’t rely on that. 5e has notoriously bad DM-facing material, and after years of running it, I got burnt out. The DM is playing the game, too, and their time, effort, and fun matter just as much as anyone else’s. I’m sick of 5e’s approach that the DM will either figure it out or take the blame. The fact that it’s so hard to be a new DM is, in my opinion, the likely reason there’s a DM shortage. You don’t get the same problem with other games!
So yeah, like you said. System matters. Even if you don’t use a system per se and go FKR, that’s a choice you made on the structure of the game.
I think people mix the terms “rules-light” and “narrative-focused”, PBtA is very ‘everyone defines the story as they go’ (in my experience) compared to a DM having a set story in mind which the players follow. Also compared to D&D, PBtA is very rules-light, compare a few sheets for your playbook to pages of class abilities and spells in the PHB!
I really love pbta games but I would agree with you that they are not rule light so much as “rule lighter than d&d”
there’s lots of one page systems out there that are truly rules light.
that said once you know the rules I would say that it provides a system that is easy to plan for, it’s easy to play in, and it flows very naturally.
I ran dungeon world and monster of the week campaigns for years, playing probably 3 to 4 hours once a week on average most of that time.
I think I did maybe 2 hours a month of prep? something about like that.
I loved how pbta games would allow me to basically spend all of my prep time coming up with cool ideas and not having to worry too much about the mechanics because I either had a framework too accomplish them already or I could just make it up on the spot.
some of my group’s favorite moments in our campaign have come from me just making things up on the spot and them being able to react to it.
when I used to DM for d&d or Pathfinder those kind of moments would take hours of prep work.
I would say the obsession is more people finding something that has freed them from the heavy rule set rather than something that is truly rules light.