The fact that it can be used as a scripting language doesn’t mean it’s a scripting language. You could use C++ as a scripting language as well, but it would suck.
C# even supports native compilation nowadays, not just JIT, so it’s definitely not a lowly scripting language.
Anyways you’ve got options. Go may also be one of them if you want GC, I forgot to mention it.
I’ve found working with Rust and Bevy to be quite pleasant. If you’re used to working with ECS, I suggest you at least give it a go.
Rust is as functional as C++ 20 with ranges and views is, which is to say it isn’t. Not sure where you got that impression from, but while it does borrow some ideas from functional languages, it’s still very much a procedural one.
Zig doesn’t have headers, nor inheritance. Again, not sure where you got that from, but Zig is basically a modern C, so there’s no OOP anywhere, let alone multiple inheritance.
As for what to use, I think they’re both viable alternatives. I lean more towards Rust, but that’s just due to familiarity. Odin also looks like a viable option, if you don’t mind a smaller ecosystem.
If you want a garbage collected language, then I’d go for C#. Despite its historic reputation as a Windows only language, it’s been cross platform and open source for roughly a decade at this point. I find it great to work with.
It wasn’t just to accomodate trans people but just… anyone who isn’t male? Apparently women being software developers is a controversial concept for Andreas.
looks about right…
Oh my god look at how big this Java project is before I compile it, what a nightmare!!1!1!1!
When shipping to customers, all code is your responsibility, dependency or otherwise. A bug or a security vulnerability, which aren’t rare in the JS ecosystem, is your responsibility whether you wrote the code or not. Customers don’t care if someone else wrote it, it’s your product, you are to blame. Thus, the less code, the better. Less moving parts also means more stability in general.
the most popular language and the most successful cross platform development platform in the entire history of programming
But no, I’m sure it’s the millions of successful developers and users who are wrong.
People can be successful with things that aren’t perfect. It’s often a matter of being the first, not being the best. Something can be popular and still not be good, momentum is hard to stop. If JS’s own creator saying so in the last few years can’t convince you of that, I don’t know what will. Flash at one point was the most popular. It was still flawed, and a liability, but I bet that doesn’t hurt you as much to hear.
Everything is shit but you amirite?
Quite the contrary. I have flaws like everybody else, but at least I don’t deflect every single criticism of stuff I like because in can’t fathom it not being perfect. It’s fine, use it. Maybe one day you’ll find a platform that’ll make you realize there’s better stuff out there.
But I’m done arguing with you. I should have known by the tone of your first reply that this wasn’t going to be a real discussion, just you being butthurt because someone said something negative about your favourite language. Go get butthurt somewhere else.
There’s a distinct lack of FactoryFactoryFactoryBuilders in this code snippet.
Clearly you have yet to reach true abstraction nirvana.
Is there something I’m missing here? Why would you expect to be able to do bitwise operations on floats and get a sensible value? And if you want to do integer bitwise operations… you still can? Just use integer values and the bitwise operators?
No that’s my point. You can’t, because there’s no such thing as an integer value. It’s all floats, always. They get casted to integers, the binary operation is done, then they get converted back to floats. That’s a lossy process, so some binary operations with certain values are simply not possible and you get weird results. The max width of an integer you can store is 53 bits, the maximum addressable width is 32 bits for binary operations. That’s wonky.
This is patently false. JS has sets, maps, etc…
Ah yes I forgot sets. But I don’t think there’s anything else? Last time I checked there were no binary trees, no proper (ring buffer) queues, no ordered sets, but I may be wrong on that. It’s not enough imo for a proper standard library.
For everything else:
My point is that JS is an okay scripting language for the web. As I said, for that it’s perfectly fine, though the frameworks are often lacking imo. But there is this tendency to use it to create backends, desktop applications and tooling. That’s where the language falls apart, because it’s not made for that. It needs to be more robust, well defined and fully featured to be used in those contexts, both in terms of JS itself, and its standard library. Same with TS.
You seem to be confused about what JS is. It’s a high-level interpreted language. It’s not C.
I know and that’s the point. It’s underspecified for things outside the web, so it’s terrible for those use-cases. You can make it work for Node, but not for Bun or any other runtime. And even then, the experience is acceptable at best.
I personally would never use it for such use-cases, but people keep touting it and TS as these amazing general purpose languages you can do anything in. You can, but you really shouldn’t.
That’s what people with skill issues tend to say.
Not that’s what people who can recognize genuine architectural defects and aren’t blind fanboys say.
You apparently still bitch and whine like a rookie.
Only to your eyes since apparently pointing out genuine problems is whining. It’s okay for people not to like the stuff you like. And no, using a few swear words for emphasis doesn’t make someone immature, nor does listing what one has worked with for context.
You learned how to write == in every other language, but you can’t figure out === in typescript?
…you still haven’t realised that === is not what I have a problem with have you? It’s literally a non issue. In fact, equality in general is a non issue. It’s the wonky standard library, lack of proper support for binary operations, serialization and almost everything being an afterthought that I have a problem with. Does it prevent me from using the language and write proper, stable software? No. But it’s not good.
you install a whole web browser alongside operating system shims into your project
Except that amounts to a mere ~180_000 lines of the 3 million. Did a plain create-react-app without Electron, still over 3 million.
Now, since it’s impossible to have a genuine conversation if the other party’s response is “haha you suck” to any genuine, documented criticism, are you gonna grow up or are you gonna keep acting like an offended 13 year old who can’t find a better retort?
Ah that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with abstraction, until it becomes too much.
Anything that isn’t plain web browser stuff.
You can’t write files without Node specific APIs.
You can’t even do proper bitwise operations because everything’s a float.
Binary serialization is a pain and proper deserialization in general is not enforced, even in TypeScript, because types are an illusion.
Up until recently there were no synchronization primitives, though now the idea of having them in JS seems terrifying.
There are no other data structures than arrays and maps, which are often not enough.
It’s just not a language I’d use for anything more than… well… Scripting. But even though other, better solutions exist for cross platform development, people insist on using JS, so here we are.
I can understand accounting for different environments. That’s unfortunately unavoidable. But I found web framework developers in particular have a weird tendency of piling up ungodly amounts of abstractions just for the sake of it.
It’s kind of a cultural problem in modern software development in general imo. It’s not limited to web dev by any means, but it’s particularly bad there because JS lends itself to it quite well.
I had to go back to working with React just recently.
I’m technically using TS, but the standard library is the same anyways. It hardly has everything imo.
It does have what it needs to interface with the browser, and quite a few -sometimes poorly thought out- facilities, but not much more.
Don’t get me wrong, for a web scripting language it’s plenty, but if one wants to use JS for stuff that isn’t just putting a simple page on a screen, that’s not enough.
Maybe you mean Node instead of JS?
It definitely isn’t in some circumstances.
Frankly I’d put C/C++ in a similar category when it comes to compilation.
Dealing with Make, CMake, linkage and all that can be a nightmare.
The ecosystem is a little bit better though in my opinion. If nothing else you get a proper standard library and don’t have to rely on thousands of dependencies to get anything done… or you often roll your own if you are in C… which is meh.
I find Rust, C#, Go and anything slightly more modern to be a great or at least good experience.
Python as well if you use venv and your runtime and package versions align.
My point is, there is no perfect platform and ecosystem, but the web is generally regarded as one of the poorest.
I’m not saying someone can’t enjoy working on web stuff, they most certainly can. But it is objectively overcomplicated.
You seem to confuse “people making mistakes” with “a language that is designed in such a way that those mistakes are not only common, but integral part of the experience.”
I’m not saying I make such mistakes, I say the design is crap. It’s not a skill issue, it’s a design issue. People say null pointers were a mistake. I’m inclined to agree. Not because I get a null pointer exception every five minutes, but because there are better ways to handle cases like that.
You said I was a rookie, I proved you wrong.
You said there was nothing crazy about web application complexity, I provided you with a common, glaring example. There’s nothing unhinged in saying “look I installed Electron and React and not my project has 3 million lines of crap I have to worry about”.
Everything else was just emphasis for the sake of it.
But when you don’t have a valid argument, you resort to personal attacks. Maybe it’s you that should learn to be better.
Lmao bruh, tell me you’ve never coded in a different language without saying you’ve never coded in a different language.
I’ve been a software developer for over 10 years, on both on the front end and the back end.
I’ve worked with jQuery, React, plain old DOM manipulation, god damn PHP. I’m not new to web development.
Outside of web technologies, I’ve worked on nautical charts processing software and microcontroller firmware in C, C++ and Rust.
I’ve worked on native GUI applications with C++, Java and C# using JavaFX, WPF, GTK, Qt.
All under strict corporate standards.
I also work on compilers and rendering engines in my spare time.
So no, I’m not a “junior programmer” making “basic junior programming mistakes”. Your favourite language is ass.
You shouldn’t immediately jump to the conclusion that someone has never written a line of code only because they say so.
Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but even senior developers, web or otherwise, say it. I’m not the one swimming against the current, you are.
And lmao, oh my god the web ecosystem is ass because a framework for producing robust complex applications isn’t just an html and CSS file?
Alright, let’s do a little experiment, shall we? Let’s try and create an empty electron app with React and TypeScript.
A quick create-electron-app and some configuring TS, ESLint and WebPack later we reach a whopping 3_087_725 lines of code. 3 million lines. ~700MB.
This all requires a linting step, a pre-compilation step though tsc, multiple additional translation steps through webpack for older ES versions.
All of that for an empty page on a webview.
This is batshit crazy. And I come from fucking CMake for crying out loud.
There is nothing robust about this, the slightest misstep and your sourcemaps are fucked.
Whoops the author of left-pad decided to pull it from npm - half the JS ecosystem on its knees.
Whoops the author of is-even one day decides it’s a stupid package to need - half the JS ecosystem on its knees.
Web developers are standing on a crumbling, fermenting pile of shit. Get over it.
…
With that said, you can still enjoy JS and all the web stuff, there’s nothing wrong with that…
People dislike JS because it’s packed full of moronic footguns and technical debt. The “standard library” is full of baffling decisions and, much like the language, rarely does what you expect. Even its creator agrees it’s a terrible language and should have been replaced by now.
TypeScript is better, but at the end of the day it’s just an illusion. Add an any anywhere, which will happen, and you’re back to square one. It also still inherits some of the weirdness of JS, because it is just JS with fake types bolted on. Plus, the amount of work one has to do to create a proper library with TypeScript support completely undermines the few advantage of JavaScript. Might as well use a real statically typed language at that point, at least you’d be sure your types are actually enforced.
Also, the whole web ecosystem is ass.
The hoops one has to jump through nowadays to do web development are absolutely batshit crazy. And no, having a create-whatever that sets things up for you is not a real solution.
I’m running it on Wayland + Nvidia (god help me) and it works great, no crashes whatsoever. No idea what’s going on on your end. I haven’t tried using any custom keybindings or the command palette, so I’m not sure if those work.
I’m using it on Windows, works fine for the most part. Compiling it takes ages and >16GB of RAM though :/
I haven’t experienced any stability issues or crashes as of yet, but some of the extensions don’t work.
All in all it’s a great start imo, but it definitely needs some work
I really wanna know where you get your language info and examples from because nearly every single one you wrote in your comments is just wrong.
Program state in Rust isn’t immutable.
datastruct.nextState()is not only possible, but perfectly reasonable, it’s exactly how iterators are implemented.